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ECM Ships - Looking at better defined roles

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 7 post(s)
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:29:00 - [1] These are my ships, and I kind of like the new options. Falcon - Use it to set up close range (20km) warp-ins, then uncloak and lock-down at short range when your gang arrives. Awesome, and better than the hilariously broken current falcon that perma-jams the interceptors chasing after it trying to get in tackling range. Rook - Nice partner with the Cerberus and Eagle for Caldari-style range tanking. Makes a lot of sense actually. Scorpion - Please give it torpedo bonuses. The scorpion would be the best brawler, already has 8 mid slots for both tanking and ecm. Easy to run 4 jammers + 2 hardeners, and fit 4 siege launchers.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:38:00 - [2] Originally by: Larkonis Trassler Falcon & Rook Quote: The falcon has been changed to be similar to the pilgrim in its role as a ECM brawler at shorter ranges. It has a bigger ECM strength bonus whilst losing its ECM optimal range bonus. In addition its agility and base velocity and have been increased to allow it to be more manoeuvrable at shorter ranges. Wait wat... I disagree here... people will still not fly the Rook and in every other Recon ship class the Combat varient is more effective in every sense (range/dps/highs). Also are these numbers applying to multispecs (which noone uses anyway) or racials? I would rather see the Falcon get a slight nerf to strength (back down to 15%) and have the Rook's remain as is. By all means force Falcons in closer but don't castrate the Rook in this manner. The combat recons are solo hunters, not force multipliers. Not great dps nor great electronic warfare capabilities, but good for one on one encounters. If the rook had a small strength bonus, a good range bonus, decent missile bonuses and a nice base speed it would be great. The rook is actually great for solo roaming, throw on a bunch of multispecs and go looking for solo ratters in ravens and domis (4 multispecs are mathematically superior in solo encounters than 4 mixed racials).
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:40:00 - [3] Originally by: Frabba I agree completely with the Falcon nerf. The proposed changes to scorpions will make them mighty worthless in fleets. My experience is fleets are typically 160km off from each other, with ECM typically operating @220km or more. Bring the scorpion inline to engage at the same range as other BS, don't make the scorpion have to come any closer then that. Turning the scorpion into a "short range brawler" will see the ship stop being used in fleet combat. That's fine though, because the Caldari already have a great hybrid platform for fleet work. Bringing electronic warfare in at closer ranges lends itself to a more complex chess match between your opposing sniper blobs.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:47:00 - [4] Originally by: Proud American Yeah let me go into close range in a paper thin cruiser that is always the primary target. That sounds like a really good idea. CCP, can I get some of what you are smoking? You're forgetting that force recons have a cloak and are supposed to use them. Covops should be the scouts, not falcons. I'm flying a falcon and I set up a warp-in for my small gang. They arrive and engage. The enemy sees them and calls a primary while I'm still cloaked. I then uncloak to begin the surprise ecm lock down.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:52:00 - [5] Originally by: Tamyris Quote: The Scorpion We are looking at putting the scorpion into the short range brawler role. To that end we are looking at removing its ECM Optimal range bonus, increasing the ECM strength bonus a little and adding a cruise/siege launcher rate of fire bonus so it can get close and personal. Summary Scorpion Changes - removed the ECM optimal range bonus - increased the ECM strength bonus to 20% per level - added a 5% RoF bonus to cruise & siege missile launchers per level. What? How does adding a RoF bonus to a Caldari ship that armor-buffer-tanks and has 4 spots for launchers help make it a close-range brawler? Would you mind explaining some of the reasoning behind this? Here's what those bonuses will do to the scorpion: - removing optimal bonus: The average scorpion pilot will need to get in closer, exposing him to more danger. - increasing ECM strength: The average pilot will get off a few more jams per battle (5% more per level of Caldari BS to be exact) - 5% RoF: nothing. When is the last time you saw the scorpions as a reliable source of DPS? You bring them in the jam anything and everything that's red, not to kill it. Yes, sure, there are 4 missile launcher slots, but they won't hit anything past 100km while the scorp sits (ideally) at 200+. As it stands, a few scorpions 200-220km off aren't really an issue - have a few dictors/covops/etc get a warp-in and send some support that way, problem solved. The main defensive layer for the Scorpion is the distance it has between itself and any enemies on grid. By removing that and not adding any other sort of defensive layer, you are essentially making a paper-thin BS that relies on chance (jams) to survive. I never liked the idea of scorpions in fleet work. If you can fly a battleship, bring a sniping platform. Electronic warfare should be conducted at ranges shorter than large sniping ranges, that way they have to deal with anti-support. Falcons and scorps sitting way behind the lines is broken when there is no other equivalent ewar from any other race.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:55:00 - [6] Originally by: Vadinho Edited by: Vadinho on 24/03/2009 18:51:20 Cool just destroy the entire purpose behind the Scorpion, that's alright Can you find a way to remove the Rokh's optimal bonus and give it a drone bonus, I don't think the Caldari are useless enough in fleets yet Caldari definitely aren't useless in fleet. Rokh is a baller sniper, eagle and vulture are solid anti-support. I've flown both and I like to stay near the back of the sniper blob since I can engage from farther.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 19:08:00 - [7] Originally by: Frabba Originally by: Cindare In particular the Scorpion is fine. Leave it alone, please. This. A thousand times this. The main problem people had was with FALCONS. Not scorpions. I don't have a problem with nerfing 200km+ ranges on the scorpion, but bringing us inside 160km is pointless. You have the same problem of your ewar being able to engage outside the range of most snipers trying to kill it. Snipers should always out-range ewar, since within engagement ranges ewar always has the advantage.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 19:23:00 - [8] Originally by: Vio Geraci Edited by: Vio Geraci on 24/03/2009 19:10:38 I dislike the proposed changes to the scorpion. It should have a range comparable to sniping battleships. Making it a close range brawler is castrating a ship that people used to be scared to fly because of how often it would be the primary target. I don't know. I guess I'd rather see the scorpion be a mid-range ECMer, effectively hitting around 100km or so. edit: I guess I'm a little sad that there are so few real fitting choices to be made anymore, and that the way this seems to have been caused is by making all options equally terrible. I don't know what to do with the scorpion. It's the only battleship with an ecm bonus other than black ops, which by itself makes it a weird little ship. The cruise missiles were never entirely useful in fleet. It's just so different from every other battleship, the ship class that represents raw power. I agree that the best use for the scorpion is anti-support at 100km-ish ranges, similar to the pulse-apoc.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 19:29:00 - [9] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Fahtim Meidires Originally by: Vio Geraci Edited by: Vio Geraci on 24/03/2009 19:10:38 I dislike the proposed changes to the scorpion. It should have a range comparable to sniping battleships. Making it a close range brawler is castrating a ship that people used to be scared to fly because of how often it would be the primary target. I don't know. I guess I'd rather see the scorpion be a mid-range ECMer, effectively hitting around 100km or so. edit: I guess I'm a little sad that there are so few real fitting choices to be made anymore, and that the way this seems to have been caused is by making all options equally terrible. I don't know what to do with the scorpion. It's the only battleship with an ecm bonus other than black ops, which by itself makes it a weird little ship. The cruise missiles were never entirely useful in fleet. It's just so different from every other battleship, the ship class that represents raw power. I agree that the best use for the scorpion is anti-support at 100km-ish ranges, similar to the pulse-apoc. The best thing that could be done for the scorpion would be to add 2 more highslots + 2 missile slots and give it bonuses for heavy missiles instead of cruise. Make it a genuine antisupport platform. That's how the drake was made. Quote: Either that or turn it into a turret boat with a tracking bonus. God that's a cool idea and makes a lot of sense.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 19:35:00 - [10] Originally by: Malcanis The real shame here is lack of imagination. ECM just isn't a good mechanic to start with. Scrap it and make the Caldari EW something entirely different. Gallente - Sensor, warp drive disruption Amarr - Turret, capacitor disruption Minmatar - Signature, propulsion disruption Caldari - Jamming Agreed it's very weird.

Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 19:38:00 - [11] Originally by: DaiTengu I don't fly ECM ships, nor do I fly anything caldari in regular fights. However, I'm not sure if this change was thought through completely. Unless you're planning on giving armor tanking bonuses to the scorpion and the Falcon, there's no way that these ships will even be remotely effective. You're taking a ship that's a shield tanker, who uses it's midslots not for shield tanking, but for e-war modules instead. The only thing that these ships have going for them right now is the ability to jam at range, if anyone lands on top of them, they're toast. I'm all for balancing ewar, don't get me wrong. the ability for a falcon to jam 2-3 carriers is insane, but this isn't the way to do it. There is no balancing here, this is just making the ewar platform completely unusable. Disagreeing honestly. The Rook becomes a great solo hunter once you add the drones and better missiles. Falcons now have to show restraint and take calculated risks when engaging as opposed to before (250km cloak jam is no risk).
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 19:39:00 - [12] Originally by: Vio Geraci Originally by: Fahtim Meidires I don't know what to do with the scorpion. It's the only battleship with an ecm bonus other than black ops, which by itself makes it a weird little ship. The cruise missiles were never entirely useful in fleet. It's just so different from every other battleship, the ship class that represents raw power. I agree that the best use for the scorpion is anti-support at 100km-ish ranges, similar to the pulse-apoc. I agree that it's quite strange in that there are no other battleship platforms for ewar. I'd like to see other races get larger platforms for ewar, but maybe CCP has just decided that there shouldn't be any such platform and that the scorpion should be relegated to close-range and therefore useful only for camping gates and stations --a lowsec and empire ship rather than a nullsec ship. If they turn the scorp into a hybrid ship with a tracking bonus and ewar strength it becomes a great anti-support ship.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 19:49:00 - [13] Originally by: Alekanderu nobody disagrees with nerfing the falcon, it's way too powerful as it is right now, but there is no reason whatsoever to change the scorpion Well, nobody ever seriously uses the cruise missiles, it only exists as a battleship-sized blackbird.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 19:50:00 - [14] Originally by: Alekanderu Originally by: Fahtim Meidires If they turn the scorp into a hybrid ship with a tracking bonus and ewar strength it becomes a great anti-support ship. who cares about another anti-support ship, there are a whole bunch of extremely effective anti-support ships already, the scorpion will just not be flown in 0.0 fleets all your ideas and opinions in this thread have been horrible and wrong Why does the scorpion exist? It has no purpose at the moment. Zero. It sucks at damage because missiles suck in fleet and is not much better than a blackbird. Might as well change it into something interesting.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 19:53:00 - [15] Originally by: Peter Powers Originally by: Falcon Info Force recon ships are the cruiser-class equivalent of covert ops frigates. While not as resilient as combat recon ships, Originally by: Rook Info Filling a role next to their class counterpart, the heavy assault ship, combat recon ships are the state of the art when it comes to anti-support support. They are also devastating adversaries in smaller skirmishes, possessing strong defensive capabilities in addition to their electronic superiority. the proposed changes break with the roles of those ships. The roles are pretty poorly worded. Force recons could be force multipliers in small-medium gangs. Combat recons could be good solo ships.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 19:56:00 - [16] Originally by: Incantare Edited by: Incantare on 24/03/2009 19:54:45 What about THE WIDOW ? Currently it's only redeeming factor as an ECM ship is being tied for highest ECM strength while having more mids than a falcon. With the falcon's bonus at +25% you are killing that advantage while leaving it with all its current drawbacks. Widow can provide dps and ewar from outside of 100km. Not many other ships can do that (i guess the rook will be able to). Black ops ships should look a lot like their combat recon counterparts as far as bonuses.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 20:03:00 - [17] Originally by: Alekanderu Originally by: Fahtim Meidires Originally by: Alekanderu Originally by: Fahtim Meidires If they turn the scorp into a hybrid ship with a tracking bonus and ewar strength it becomes a great anti-support ship. who cares about another anti-support ship, there are a whole bunch of extremely effective anti-support ships already, the scorpion will just not be flown in 0.0 fleets all your ideas and opinions in this thread have been horrible and wrong Why does the scorpion exist? It has no purpose at the moment. Zero. It sucks at damage because missiles suck in fleet and is not much better than a blackbird. Might as well change it into something interesting. you don't know what you're talking about at all you can fit more jammers, sensor boosters and rigs on a scorp which makes it a better ecm platform than the blackbird, and it also doesn't pop as soon as an apoc looks at it, which makes it better for fleet work I've flown buzzards, falcons and scorpions almost exclusively for the past 6 months. I guess what I'm arguing is that the scorpion's role is so out of place. If you want a battleship-sized ewar platform, fly black ops. It makes no sense for the scorpion to even exist since there are no other T1 ewar battlships.

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Falcon & Rook

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